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HomeBeginning Wicca, Classes, Witch Lesson 5: Reincarnation and Pagan Beliefs


Lesson 5: Reincarnation and Pagan Beliefs

Erin

Message: I do understand but……
Author: Hmm…. – myst Niall

Date: May 22, 2000 16:04

given the ancients view of the earth as the “mother” of all, the force of all life, why would they assume she would be included in the cycle. Was it not her that made that cycle and controls how and why the wheel turns? As the force that is responsible for us all, does it not make sense that she would not seek to destroy herself? I speak of the way the ancients believed at the time they were carving into the rocks the downfall of our time in history.

You have definitely given me much to ponder on and a new insight into the world of predictions. In all truth Daven, my river is running much clearer these days *smiling*

Message: I have no idea
Author: ranting is – Fleury CuChulainn

Date: May 22, 2000 23:36

if I’m off topic, on topic or just babbling… probably all three! *LMAO* But quite frankly I’m okay with that! 🙂

I’m mostly posting in reference to Daven’s comment about life and death, specifically,
I mean, look at it from the perspective of the people who were living when those tales were first presented. They see a cycle of life. The food is planted, grows during the summer, and dies at the end of the fall, to come back again in the spring. That cycle even applies to the animals and people. They are born, grow, die, and are used to help others grow and die.

One thing that struck me was that every death was a temporary and individual ‘end of the world’ but no one seemed to fear it then… death was a natural progression of life. Death was a temporary end but it also promised a new life, a rebirth, just like the harvests every year… People did not fear death as they do now. Now, many people would rather be hooked up to machines and live an artificial life rather than face the inevitable. They subject themselves to operations that suck, tuck, and pull everything into a new position in the hopes of holding onto their youth and thereby defy the ageing process. Do they hope to defy the natural progression? Probably because those who have the money for all of these things will probably attempt cryogenics or cloning or whatever the latest wave of immortality is…

Hmmm, I’m ranting and losing my point… now THERE’S something new… LOL My point is, perhaps we might be a more accepting society (of things like age, and bodily imperfections) if accepted the natural cycle of all life. I got an email recently that I found very poignant. In any region of the world, there are eight million women who wish they looked like a model and only eight who really do. Why is that? Perhaps because we no longer accept, understand and appreciate that which was considered the norm in ancient times.

I could go on, but I know I’ve deviated in a major way… just call me weird! *grin*

Message: Yep, that is how it should be viewed,
Author: Beaming – Daven Iceni

Date: May 23, 2000 00:29

and all too often is not.  For some reason, a cycle of life and death and life again, was transformed into a “one life, then eternal punishment or eternal reward”.

We should have no fear of Death.  Death is a stage, nothing more in our lives.  It comes, it goes, and you live again.  Depending on your religious upbringing, you then either live forever with your Deity of Choice, or you come back here to learn what you missed last time.

Look at it this way:  The cycles of our lives are mirrored when we are young.  You grow and learn love and basics from your parents.  Then you go to Pre K.  There you learn the important things of not eating the crayons, and that glue tastes like Kool Aid.  From there to Kindergarten, and the importance of staying inside the lines when coloring.  Then first grade, second grade, and so on till you graduate High School.  Then, if you want, you can go back to get a degree in college.

Well, in the summers, you have breaks between grades, and you get to rest.  You even get to make important decisions like what kind of notebook you want to take to school when it starts, and so on.

Same thing with your life cycle.  Little things you learn first, and as you go on, you get more complex matters down and go on.  In between each life or grade, you get time to think of what is going on, and what you want.

As such, viewing death as summer vacation is easy.

One of the most powerful statements that I have ever read in any book was in Illusions by Richard Bach.  In it one statement grabbed my soul.  “And always remember, what a caterpillar calls the end of the world, a master calls a butterfly.”

Death is not a stopping, ending, but a metamorphosis.

I read tarot cards, and the one card that everyone fears, and hates seeing is the Death card.  They think it means to die.  But if you look in any tarot deck out there, the little booklet will say “a change, gradual, a metamorphosis”.

That is what our death is.  A metamorphosis from the creatures in this prison of flesh to a being of light and energy, free and whole, knowing all we learned.

So, knowing this, and knowing that the Ancients saw the cycles in nature as a natural cycle, it’s a no-brainer that they thought that the world, their society, their family went through similar cycles.

(this is the point where I loose the track of the thread I was following in my head.  Oh well.)

Hope I made sense.

Message: Reincarnation, metamorphosis, and the soul…..
Author: timidly raising hand – EponaDawn Catuvellauni

Date: May 23, 2000 16:23

I’m really confused about the concept of reincarnation.  Taking the easy way out, assuming that the human soul returns to a human body, I have never understood where all the extra souls come from.  Starting with two humans, if no extra souls were created, then the number would remain the same with no increase in population.  (Gimme a break here….I flunked business math *g*).  As for why man’s beliefs went from a circle to a straight line, I read somewhere that Christianity was the first religion to take man off the “wheel” so to speak, and for good reason.  The Jews themselves believed in reincarnation, but had been so oppressed for so very long, that a belief in a religion that took the individual from an undesirable cyclical existence on earth straight to paradise, was very appealing.

As for the concept of a soul…what IS the soul anyway?  Our conscience?  Our basic nature?  I am of the opinion that no way is the soul our actual intellect; otherwise, people with degenerative brain disorders would have no soul.  However, isn’t it that same intellect and understanding that shapes our conscience and our actions?  If we say someone is reincarnated after death into another human body, what stage of development is manifest in the new body and what degree of intelligence?  Of course, the same can be said of any religion that professes to believe the soul goes to heaven or hell.  And don’t even get me started on the resurrection of the body belief.. LOL.

I think I have now drifted over into Daven’s corner, you know the one, where you lose the train of thought you were on *g*.

Message: Daven was kind enough to ask me to take a look
Author: introducing self – Ciaran Iceni

Date: May 23, 2000 23:52

at this discussion and to give a few pence of thought now an again. I have been a practicing Pagan for pretty close to twenty years, I’ve been a Solitary and I’ve led a coven. I have fairly diverse and extensive interests.

Now on the the issue at hand. In terms of reincarnation and soul, different religions view them in different ways. To begin with, since I’m not Christian, I don’t feel tied to the ‘two people started it all’ theory of creation. I’m perfectly comfortable with the whole theory of evolution and the idea that animals and other beings have souls as well as humans. One of the ways that other cultures explain the increase in human population is that all the additional souls are from the animals that no longer exist. The number of souls who used to be passenger pigeons boggles the mind! 😉

As to what the soul is, that’s a very good question. I don’t think that it’s as clear cut as our intelligence, because as you’ve observed people can loose intellectual function. I believe the soul is the energy that animates us, it can be tied to our intellect, but is not the same thing. If you have ever observed a dead body, it is clearly different than a sleeping body- in spite of all the relatives that go to the funeral and say that the person looks like they are sleeping! If you have ever been with something when it is dying, there is a very definite moment when life leaves- I may just be sensitive to that sort of thing, but I find it unmistakable.

And to address the Christianity being the philosophy that ‘freed’ people from the wheel of reincarnation, that’s a nice theory but in fact Christianity originally had reincarnation as a belief! They dropped it when the hierarchy of the Church realized that it was harder to frighten people into giving the Church all their money if they got a second or third chance not to burn in Hell. Be very careful of believing the Christian Church’s press releases, they have a tendency to edit their history to suit their purposes at the moment.

And since this is supposed to be Pagan basics, shouldn’t we be discussing Paganism? 😎

Message: I’m the pagan off the topic*smile*
Author: timidly.. – myst Niall

Date: May 24, 2000 00:35

In reply to Ciaran, it’s me who is always asking questions off the topic. I just wonder about so many things and for once I have found a place where I get, you know, real answers. LOL

I do agree with you on being able to feel and sometimes see (not with your eyes – but with that part of you that is. I know this makes no sense to someone who hasn’t been there) the life force or soul depart the body. The air changes in the room and sometimes a small breeze will pass through, it is incredible and what is leaving is most surely a live presence.

I know this because for the past ten years I have worked in palliative care. As one who cares for the dying or maybe I am very sensitive to it, you feel when the time is very near – like a sixth sense. It always leaves gently and there are no words to describe the look of peace and almost wonder on the faces of the deceased.

I will try to stay on the topic from now on, really I will – LOL

Message: What topic were we on???
Author: lost – Daven Iceni

Date: May 24, 2000 09:56

LOL

Okay, to address the questions here, I need to make a lesson up.  There is too much for me to cover in a five or six paragraph post, so we will skip the Energy work for now, and focus on “The Cycle of Life”.

In there we will look at Wiccan reincarnation, New Age reincarnation, Hindu reincarnation, Shinto reincarnation, and so on, until I give you my thoughts on the topic.

Primarily, here in this thread, we are talking about Paganism in general, and I am making a real effort to keep Wicca as one among many, but please keep in mind that I am Wiccan IRL, and a High Priest, so that may color my thoughts.

Where Wicca has a “party line” that is basic to the teachings, I will present that separately (and make the distinction) and then I will give you my experiences on that topic as well.

I’ll see if I can get some others that I know of to speak on the topics they know of in regards to this subject (reincarnation), but just like everything else, there are a LOT of opinions out there as to what happens next, and we have no real way of knowing without dying ourselves.

So, give me a day or two, and I’ll have the next topic up.

Message: Okay, as promised, Reincarnation
Author: Guru… – Daven Iceni

Date: May 25, 2000 14:41

Okay, first off, let me state that I am no expert.  I am familiar with the basics of many belief systems, but not the whole details, and this is all coming out of my head, since I’m at work and don’t have my references here (and they are all still packed).

So, let me start with Wiccan Reincarnation.

According to basic Wiccan belief, the soul is reincarnated multiple times.  It does not matter how many other lives you have lived, only thin one matters.  As to the process that is said to happen, there opinion is divided.  Mostly, you die, go to the Summerlands where you talk things over with the Gods and Goddesses, and come back.  Transmigration is possible, but not usually encouraged, and the number of times you come back varies.  I have heard everything from 9 times (3 times 3) to 12 times (one for each sign of the zodiac).

Generally, it is agreed that there are “old souls” and “new souls” walking around on the planet.  As to where these souls come from, well, there we have a disagreement.  Some say that all of the original souls came from the Goddess (in a celestial sense) split herself into everything you know of and interact with.  That at one time there was ONLY the Goddess, and like YEVH before her (at least in the order the stories were told) she fragmented.

From there you get some souls who wait and explore the universe, talk to each other, and others who wish to embody to explore things.  And you have multiple age souls running around at various stages of development.

I have some problems with this system, on a personal level.  It’s too like the Judeo-Christian way of things, with the substitution of deity taking place.  You still can’t have life without a mother and a father.  Asexual fission is good in an ameba, but I think we are slightly more complex than that.

So on to Hindu now, (and where I may step in it.  I am not as familiar with this kind of Reincarnation as I would like to be).

Everyone knows by now that Cows are sacred to the Hindus.  Well, this is because of the Hindus see all life as sacred, and the cow more than most because of how much they give to us as humans.  It is not due to Transmigration of Souls, as many (including me) believe.  Transmigration is the belief that we go through all forms of life, ending up as human as the panicle of achievement.

While it is possible for one to progress from Mineral to Vegetable to Animal to Human, and to continue to spiritually progress, it is rare in Vegetable and Mineral states.  Many lifetimes must be served in each of these phases, before you are judged ready to progress to the next level and learn from being a piece of seaweed.

Now, I am not running Hindus down, they have given many things to Spiritualism in general, but their system is REALLY complex and I don’t pretend to understand it.  So, in an effort to give you guys information I have these links below that lead to articles I found on the Internet.  Hope they help.

KarmaReincarnation

9QuestionsAndAnswers

Must know

One belief that the Hindus gave to spiritualism (and I don’t know if they took it from Buddhism or the other way ’round) is the theory of Karma.  Karma can be explained as “acts in this life affect your starting point in the next life”.  Basically, do good now, and next life your lot is improved, and do bad, and it’s worse.

Now, on to Buddhism and Shintoism.

I know that these two faiths are totally separate in all ways, but they are really similar in the area of reincarnation.  In Buddhist belief, once you die, you wait 40 days and are re-born into a new body, with Karma affecting you from previous lives.  In Shinto beliefs, once you die, you become a Kami.

What is a Kami you might ask?  Well, it’s a spirit, inhabiting a location or place.  It’s a house spirit, a temple spirit, a shrine spirit, a rock spirit.  In short, it is a spirit that is part of anything, separate from all other Kami and part of a whole.  Usually they need to be appeased, although they are not violent spirits.  It is courtesy in any case and good manners.  So, you die and hang around as a Kami until the Great Spirit (I think) releases you to go on to a better place.

Now, this is only what I have picked up in my reading, so don’t quote me on this.  I could be wrong.  But here are some links to places that have done the research, to give you accurate info.  LOL

http://www.rpi.edu/~stewac2/portfolio/japan1.html

http://www.encyclopedia.com/printable/11820.html

Shinto Belief

http://www.insanely-great.com/Thought/Shinto.html

and finally:  http://www.religioustolerance.org/buddhism.htm

Now, we come to New Age philosophy on this.  Hang on to your hats…

New age has been related to sewage.  “New age, rhymes with sewage, and is the same watered down crap”.  (with thanks to Mercedes Lackey).  In many respects, this is true, although the practitioners are usually genuine in their beliefs.

New age movements began in the 60’s when someone realized that the Astrological houses had rotated back and that it was the beginning of the Age of Aquarius.  See, there is a slight shift every 2000 years or so when the house that the Vernal Equinox falls on is in a different astrological sign.

This, of course, led to the planets aligning, world peace and harmony, new enlightenment and general understanding, contact with alien races, and a robbery of just about every spiritual path that was out there.  Beliefs were stolen wholly from (fill in religion here) and shoehorned into “The Age of Aquarius” mind set.  It’s sad really, to see this happen.

Well, time passed and when the Earth didn’t rise up against us and fix herself and eject us all from her back, most of those practitioners decided to look into the origins of their beliefs, and find out just what the heck was going on, and where they were coming from.  No harm there, but what started amazing most was that there was an incredibly rich tradition that had been thrown out the window with the theft of the beliefs.

It’s analogous to taking the candy wrapper and putting your own candy into it, and selling it, without ever finding out if there were other candies out there that had what you were offering, and never tasting the candy you were throwing away.  Quite a number of the best practitioners of Paganism and Magick got their start in this area (including yours truly.)

So, pick a belief, any belief (including Christianity), and I bet if you look, you can find that belief in New Age teachings someplace.

Norse and Celtic beliefs:

The Celtic (from the little I have read on the subject) believed in a type of reincarnation and a cycle similar to Karma in that acting honorably in this lifetime would make things better off for you in the next.  Other than that, I have no idea what they believed.  There are few written records on this subject, and what there is, is skewed by the influence of Christianity.

Norse beliefs were not so much coming back here to this plane to live another life, so much as living in Valhalla with Odin, and participating in the End of the World with all the Gods as the warriors.  There were places that you could go that would be different based on your acts here and now, but I don’t really have those sorted out in my head too well.

Other spiritual paths:

I will not touch on the Native American beliefs, simply because I don’t know them at all.  The Native Americans are close mouthed about their beliefs and I don’t want to guess where there is no evidence.  However, anthropological evidence suggests that they do have some kind of afterlife that a departed person goes to, or else why have grave goods?

A similar argument can be said about the Egyptian beliefs, but for the similar reason that I do not speak with more authority on Native beliefs, I shall leave this one alone too.

As to African beliefs, there you have me.  I have absolutely no idea what they worshiped, who they worshiped, or anything else about them other than the fact that eventually their beliefs became somewhat mixed with Christianity and mutated on Haiti into Voodoo.

Now we come to my beliefs.  I have no research to back this up except what I have done and witnessed in my own head and what I have thought about.  I tend to be a bit more logical than most, and I have no apologies for that.

From a logical standpoint, I believe, as many Eastern religions do, that we each have three bodies.  The physical body, which is shed when it dies, the “mental body” or the Spirit, which is put into a memory base when we die, and our “etheric body” or our soul.  Each is distinct from the others, and can be looked at individually, which I will do so now.

The body is just that.  Our bodies.  They bleed, have bones and fingernails, and is constantly dying around us and being renewed.  It gets dirty and smelly and most of us don’t like the looks of it.

Our Spirit is our personality and knowledge from this lifetime.  It is the sum of our experiences and our thoughts and actions.  It resides in our bodies and is continuous after death, but not immortal.  There is an ending point for our Spirit.  Since the Spirit is created and grows through sensory input, and through experiences, then when the body ceases to function, then that input is broken, and thus it does not continue to grow and expand after death.  But it is still there.  This is what many people who look to past life regressions are accessing when they do so.  It is the experiences from this lifetime and their knowledge.

The Soul is eternal and immortal.  It has been, will be and is.  Always and forever.  It is what makes each person unique.  Even twins who grow up in the same environment, with identical bodies, and the same knowledge to draw upon and the same experiences, are unique individuals because of the soul.  No soul is the same as the rest, just as no person is the same.  The soul is what is truly us.  It learns, is asexual, knows no limits, is infinite and complete.

Now, starting with those definitions, I have a theory.  (from here on I shall say we, but I mean I.  If this theory is not palatable to you, nothing is making you believe this.)  After the body dies, we do go to a place that is not here.  Most would call it the Astral plane.  I do.  There we take our spirit and look at it.  We examine all of that which we were and had been, and we see where we messed up and where we did good.  We grade our lifetime and figure out if we passed or failed.  We look at the lessons learned and the lessons unlearned.  Then we make a decision.  Whether or not to come back into a body and try again if we did bad, or to stay where we are for a time on vacation.

During this time, there may be parts of us that want to go back and learn a specific lesson in just one lifetime, so we split.  Infinity divided in two gives you two infinite beings.  One stays and one goes.  This is where new souls come from, and why some are more advanced than others.  Eventually, we will re-join because the reverse is true too, infinity plus infinity equals infinity.

We keep doing this cycle until we feel that we have learned what we wished to know, then we stop.  Since we are on the same level as the Gods then, we become a God or Goddess, if we choose to.  Or we re-combine with the Gods that gave birth to us.  Or we guard and protect those we love until they join us.  But we stay in this state forever.

The cool part is that no matter what happens here, our souls can’t be harmed.  Our bodies, certainly, our Spirits, yes, but that which makes us ourselves cannot be injured or harmed.  It will be shucked off when our body dies anyhow.  The experience will still be there, and it will be remembered, but noting more.

You must understand that our Soul is a very gregarious thing.  It craves experience and knowledge.  Nothing good, bad or indifferent is wasted.  It simply is.  Now, because there are things we wish to learn while we are here, it behooves us to be as careful as we can so that we are not in the middle of a negative experience to the determent or missing of one of the things that we wanted to learn.

Everyone understand now?

Questions, comments, points of elaboration?  Let me know, don’t be silent.

Message: Good websites!
Author:EponaDawn Catuvellauni

Date: May 26, 2000 02:46

Good job, Daven, very good websites.  I appreciate your taking the time to look them up.  They were straightforward, informative, and thought-provoking.  I won’t go so far as to say I understood it all, but now I feel I have a better grasp on the reincarnation beliefs of the different religions of the world.

Message: It has been brought to my attention
Author: Apologetic – Daven Iceni

Date: May 26, 2000 10:36

that I was harsh on the New Age movement.  For this I apologize.  It was not my intention.

Well, maybe some.

Let me explain my position on the whole New Age movement, so that you can understand why I was more vicious than I should have been.

The New Age movement did start in a time period of great turmoil in the Untied States, and it had many positive changes to our society as a whole.  It did bring peace to some, understanding to more, and it kicked off the modern revitalization of Wicca and Paganism.

The people who were practicing this way were sincere in their beliefs, and did try to do the best job they could and do the best things for the most people that they could.  For this, we all owe these people a debt of gratitude.

What I object to is the “borrowing” of practices in these teachings from other cultures and from other faiths.  That is the primary reason that I have a problem with.

The secondary problem that I have with it was that many unscrupulous people took that which was “borrowed” and tried to pass it off as their own “enlightened way” IF ONLY THEY FOLLOWED IT BLINDLY.  More of the “do this and you are assured to go to Nirvana, with no effort required”.  That, and if there were hard parts, or if there were contradictions, then they were glossed over or ignored.

Then, holy scriptures, meditative ways, ways of thought and being were stripped of their hard parts, the part where you improve yourself through your own effort and turned into things like “Zen and the art of Motorcycle Maintenance”.

In too many ways to count, the New Age movement tried to “create a shortcut” to peace and happiness that just doesn’t exist.

TANSTAAFL.  Remember this phrase.  (There Ain’t No Such Thing As A Free Lunch)  There are ways that are easier to do, and within those ways paths that are easier for one to travel that are harder for others, but you still have to work to attain any lasting change within yourself.

Then Timothy Leary steps onto the stage.  (For those of you who don’t know Timothy Leary is the father of LSD.)  And he got most of the New Agers looking at the Drug culture for mind expansion.  By this time (mid 70’s) the whole New Age movement had been subsumed into other people’s ways and methods, so that now you had cults like the Moonies and many others, along with people whose sole job it was to kidnap people out of cults and rebuild them like they were.

Yes, the New Age movement was a boon for everyone involved in the beginning, and many wise people saw where things were heading and go out (or founded their own spiritual paths) long before it reached this stage.  And that is all to the good.

But I came into this enlightenment and self discovery phase at the back end of all of this.  I was so lost in “Meditation to the classics” cassettes and “Genuine Austrian Crystal, guaranteed to heal all your ills” and the mass-market stuff that it was literally YEARS for me to find myself again.

So, to those sincere practitioners of New Age mysticism who really tried to do the best job they could, and be the best person they could be, I am sorry if my words offended.

To those who continue to prey upon those of us who are trying to find their identity spiritually, taking without asking, and giving cotton-candy airy spiritual nonsense, I am unrepentant of my words, and I will always strive to counteract the mess that you have made.

And to anyone I have personally offended, I did not intend to do so.  I was speaking in general terms, not in the specific.  Most of those who walked the New Age path I have a high respect for, because they have one thing that most organized religions lack, sincerity.  And that is all to the good as far as I am concerned.

Message: Are we not responsible?????
Author: outside looking in … – myst Niall

Date: May 26, 2000 16:58

Daven regarding your comments on New Age beliefs, it seems to me that humanity is to blame not the individuals who put a few beliefs into writing. If you look back over time man as a whole has always looked for the shortcuts and the easy way out. It applies to everything not just religion. Diet fad schemes – lotteries – you name it and someone has dreamed up something to prey upon mans short comings. And what better topic than religion?

As with all we do in life, we alone are responsible for making the decision to believe and as such it is up to us to research and ask about what we are being told. Like you have said many times it is a personal quest to find our path and each will be different from the next.

It is my personal belief that people are not being held responsible for the choices they make, and it is becoming an acceptable way of thinking to look for the scapegoat – it has to be someone else’s fault.

Unfortunately, there will always be people like sheep and some wolf out there ready to lead them from the pasture into the forest. Mayhap as you said until the day comes when humanity understands that nothing in life is free.

Brightest blessings:-)

Message: I have a few questions
Author: wondering…. – myst Niall
Date: May 28, 2000 23:33

Karma, we all know of this. Most religions have something that sounds very like Karma. Be a better person in this life, in order to attain a higher level in Heaven (or wherever).
Could this have come to all religions from a very ancient pagan belief?

Shinto beliefs – Kami a spirit that inhabits places and or things. The ancients of all religions knew that the trees, rocks, plants etc. had a life force. Could this be Kami? And what of the animals? Could not they to be inhabited by the Kami? If not where do the animals spirits come from?

I am confused by your definition of spirit and soul. I thought your spirit was what gave your soul its life force – that which made it alive. If a spirit is the manifestation of all our life experience, and it is not immortal but our soul is, then what happens to the knowledge possessed by the spirit? Where does it go?

I do agree with your belief of when we die, we go to an “astral plane” and review  our life, the failures and triumphs. But after that……hmm

Message: Okay, in answer to Myst
Author: Teacher – Daven Iceni

Date: May 29, 2000 01:17

Sorry to have confused you with my definition of Spirit and Soul.  I’ll try to clarify.

Spirit.  Our intellect, our intelligence, our emotions.  I say that the spirit is not immortal since it depends upon input to keep it learning and growing.  When this “life” ceases, it stays with the soul, but it goes into kind of a database where all of the other lives that have been lead are.  There it resides, and invades our dreams, and our meditations.

The Soul knows it is there, but it will not access it because we must learn without the active support of those previous lives.  However, the memories and lessons learned in those past lives have shaped our soul, and thus our reactions.

Look at it this way (to steal some psychology terms).  The Soul is the Id or subconscious.  It is always there, it is where our reactions come from, it gives us the general shape of who we are.  The Spirit is the Superego or Superconsious.  It is the internalization of the lessons and morals we have learned this lifetime.

When we die, like I said, the Spirit goes with the Soul.  It gets put into that “database of lives” we have already had, and when a new life starts, we get a new body and a new Spirit.  But we keep the same soul.

Is this a bit clearer?

As to Karma and the soul, there we have a conflict.  I believe that Karma does effect the soul, in that the “high points” of our lives are *generally* mapped out, before we are born.  What kind of sexual orientation do we have?  What sex are we?  What color is our skin?  What kind of family are we raised in?  Will we find a soul mate in this life?  Do we have to repay any karmatic debts in this life?

Those generalities are already chosen by us before we are born.  But the details of this life are chosen as we go along, by our actions and free will.

But that is another lesson.

Message: Humble apologies
Author: not meaning to lurk… – Fleury CuChulainn

Date: May 29, 2000 14:30

for my quiet, especially lately when I’d tried to get back into the swing of posting, but this past weekend took me away from my computer and I’ve only just caught up. I also wanted to read Daven’s reincarnation post at least once more so I could better wrap my poor little brain about its concepts…

I have a question/pondering about the concept of the Kami. In the culmination of things I’ve seen, read, heard about etc., I’ve been fascinated with the concept of imprinting. Not a hand in the dirt or the proverbial footsteps but imprints of an event or emotion on a place or a thing. It is believed by some that a significant and emotionally charged event can be seen, under the right circumstances, long after that event has passed. Some call it hauntings others consider it a collective consciousness of the land itself. Same thing as people, usually those locations rumored to be haunted are places of great significance to the deceased.  Significant in the joy of a favorite spot or by events in that place.  Most often the death of the person in that place is the most significant imprinting, the confusion, sorrow and longing of the spirit to understand its situation…  Usually a resolution of something unfinished in their lives prevents them from moving on.

Now for my pondering… do you suppose that the Kami is anything like this or just random houses for the spirit? Any ideas?

Message: Would you mean like …..
Author: seeing the light, maybe – myst Niall

Date: May 29, 2000 17:22

The battle at Culloden Moor in 1746? I know several people who have gone there, and some heard the sounds of battle while others saw – how to say it – misty images of the Highlanders over the moor. Most people who go there and walk on the field experience something. Could this place be the so called storage box for the spirits of the dead soldiers and highlanders? If so, how will they ever be at peace or will they remain restless forever?

Message: Yup, yup, yup!
Author: grinning – Fleury CuChulainn

Date: May 29, 2000 18:22

That was what I was getting at.  Don’t know if I’m right but… *grin*  In the US there are areas across the south where misty civil war battles have been witnessed.  In Australia, banished English prisoners have been seen around areas of the original penal buildings, still trying to escape.  In a very old English pub (can’t remember the name of it) a woman killed during the burning times is still seen sadly walking through its halls.

All of these sightings are of those undergoing (or having undergone) under extreme circumstances.  Could these situations have imprinted them to the earth?

Message: The Japanese term Kami
Author: defining – Ciaran Iceni

Date: May 29, 2000 20:33

is tricky to translate into English. It’s closest English equivalent is probably ‘sacred’. Therefore ghosts, such as we have been discussing, fall under the definition of kami as do Stonehenge and Karnak, and the Pyramids and the tree in the forest preserve which has a special energy and is your friend and confidant. The gods are kami, ghosts are kami, Mt Fuji is kami.

Message: Okay, there seems to be some confusion:
Author: Teacher – Daven Iceni,

Date: May 29, 2000 22:33

a Kami is translated closer to a “Sacred Spirit” or “A Spirit of a place”. It can be fairies, or elementals or nymphs. A place has a kami, but a place is not a kami.

A ghost is something else entirely. It is the Spirit of us, the person who died there, did not realize that they died and are still doing things as though they are alive. “Sixth Sense” gets really close to the concept, but not entirely. “Ghost” is closer. Some do know they died, but they feel there is still something they need to do here and now. So they stick around until the conditions are met so that they can move on.

As to imprints: Okay, we get off into a really subjective area now. An imprint is like a “psychic movie” of really earth-shaking events that happened there.

Understand, at death, a tremendous amount of energy is released. Both from the mind, and from the soul. As such, it can create really weird effects on here and now. You can get a “psychic imprint” or movie of the circumstances of the death that happened there, complete with feelings and emotions and pains, thoughts and what was seen.

This is what the imprint is, and usually it is first person in perspective. However, the “place memory” that someone spoke of can be described as this:

The Earth is alive. No one questions this. Places are alive too, because of the awareness of the Earth, by association, and belief of us. I have already (in other places) told you that our belief can create miracles, and can literally change the world. Well, a place becoming aware, as Broceliande in Brittany is through the belief of many people believing that this forest was special. As such, and with the honor that is done to the forest, and the “worship” if you will, the forest has developed, over time, an awareness. It could be considered a “kami” but I class it as something else.

A kami, to my definition, is a spirit that is separate from the place, and has chosen to reside there. A place awareness, like Broceliande, is the place’s spirit developing into an awareness. Part of and integral to the place. A kami can leave where it resides, a place awareness or spirit cannot without ceasing to exist.

Now, this is my definition. It is what I have chosen to define these as. Words are tricky things, and they are subject to misinterpretation. But I do know that Kami are NOT imprints. A kami lives, it exists, it can grant favors and bring blessings. An imprint can do none of those things, all it can do is replay what it is an imprint of forever.

Call it what you will, but the word matters not. So long as the idea can be transmitted and understood by all, it does not matter if what I call a toothpick is in your definition a Popsicle stick, and to someone else a cinnamon stick.

And unless I rule a topic out of order, or really off topic, or unless I pull us back onto track, there is no off topic here. I will say when the digression gets too out of hand. LOL

Message: seeing clearly now* smile*
Author:myst Niall
Date: May 30, 2000 02:13

Thank you for clearly defining Kami. The way you explained it, makes it all make sense. you are so right about the energy that is released when violent death occurs, and the spirit replaying it over and over like a bad movie. Wouldn’t it be great if we were able to discover how to put the poor wee things to rest?

I am unfamiliar with the forest you spoke of. Could you give me more info. on this or point me the right way to find it please?

Brightest blessings:-)

Message: On Broceliande:
Author: Teacher – Daven Iceni, Patron
Date: May 30, 2000 14:33

It is my understanding that Broceliande was the scene of many of the Arthurian events.  From the Drawing of the Sword in the Stone, to the resting place of Merlin.

Other than that, I don’t have a clue.  To find this, I looked in the Encyclopedia Mythica.  It’s a really good resource and I highly advise anyone to go and take a look at it.

Not only is there myth from the Celts, but also from the Hindus, Japanese, Chinese, Arthurian, and so many more.  Check it out.

Message: Well EponaDawn,
Author: whoa, deja-vu… – Fleury CuChulainn

Date: Jun 2, 2000 13:51

unless I’m imagining things (or gone a little potty) I think things just got a little quiet that’s all… I, for one, am still here. 🙂

Daven, I can’t remember where we had this conversation the first time, but quite a while ago we discussed simultaneous realities (re-occurring dreams, etc.)  Could these be connected to re-incarnation?  What I mean is, is deja-vu always an alternate reality or could it be a memory of a previous life?

Message: No, Fleury, you are correct
Author: Teacher – Daven Iceni

Date: Jun 2, 2000 14:13

most de ja vous is a memory of a previous lives.  At least, that is the modern explanation of this phenomenon.

Take for instance, you lived as a Scottish Farmer.  In about 850 or so CE.  All your life (currently) you have felt a pull to the Highlands of Scotland, and one day you go.  You could conceivably have a VERY powerful de ja vous experience, simply from seeing the setting that you once lived in.

That is one explanation, another is that you “pre-lived” the moment in your dreams, or had a precognitive episode.  But it would not include memories of sheering sheep there, or weaving a tartan over there….

(not that tartans were popular in the 850’s.  A tartan didn’t come into fashion until about the 1100’s or so.  I may be wrong on this.  However, they did have kilts.)

So, is that enough?  Or do I have to put up another post that’s 10 pages long to explain this?  LOL

Have fun.

Message: Hmmm…
Author: just plain evil is – Fleury CuChulainn

Date: Jun 2, 2000 15:05

No, that about covers it thanks! *grin* Unless of course you have some sort of masochistic desire to research another 10 pages… in that case, please don’t let me stop you! I have all the time in the world to read… LOL

Ponderable for the day… Is it possible to be a devil’s advocate if you don’t believe in the devil???

So, what else on re-incarnation then. Generally speaking we come back up slightly higher than the last life (whether it be evolutionary, spiritually, etc) but is it possible to regress, or come back lower?

Message: Degressing a bit
Author:EponaDawn Catuvellauni

Date: Jun 3, 2000 15:56

Is it possible that experiences of deja vu are not memories of past lives or alternate realities at all, but perhaps genetic memory?  If some of my ancestors came from Scotland (they did), and I am made up of some of their genes, could I have memories or a “pull” or attraction to a particular place because my ancestors had a physical link to it?  I guess that wouldn’t explain the remembrance of whole parts of a person’s past life tho.

The devil’s advocate argument, good vs. evil, right vs. wrong, left vs. right.  All the same, just different names.

Oh, and Daven, please feel free to research and write all you want; I enjoy your postings and website references 🙂  Besides, then I don’t have to go look it up for myself LOL.

Message: that’s could be a partial explaination
Author:Ciaran Iceni

Date: Jun 5, 2000 10:53

and it would certainly explain my feeling of intense connection to Cornwall. Although I have no evidence of a biological connection to Cornwall, there is none the less a profound spiritual connection to the place which surprised the heck out of me when I went there for the first time. I have felt similar ‘recognition’ at other places where I have never been before (Cornwall is just one of the strongest) and I’ll certainly buy the past-life/genetic theory for that. But I have also had deja vu in a much more specific way- I have recognized views out of  windows I have never seen before, known what people were going to say before they say it, I have seen people for the first time and yet known them. I have a hard time believing that these are in some way genetic! I think that a better explanation for me is that time isn’t the smooth linear entity we are led to believe, I think that it twists back on itself and crosses itself and because of this some people can occasionally catch glimpses of past/future times. What really annoys me is that the flashes of deja vu are never anything important. They just seem to be random flashes- they are never important in and of themselves and nothing of any import ever follows them. There seems to be no significance to them at all!

Message: De’ja vou and other little nagging problems.
Author: Teacher – Daven Iceni

Date: Jun 6, 2000 11:30

De’ja vou is one of the most common psychic phenomenon that there are.  Mostly, even the researchers don’t know what this is.

Some think it is a limited form of precognition, others think it’s a psychic connection to some hitherto undiscovered plane of time.

My personal theory of de’ja vou is this:  It has been theorized by many (including Stephen Hawkings) that time does not exist.  That time is only a perception, a way of viewing the world.  If this is true, then time becomes meaningless, and if you take away time, space must follow, because time and space are interrelated in such a way that they CANNOT be separated.

So, if there is no time and no space, then what is left?  Here and Now.  That’s all.

Well, upon death, time stops for the person who just died.  Time is a function of the body, since it ages and time is also a function of the sun, rising and setting, and a function of a heartbeat.  Space, is a function of being three-dimensional.  If you take away the three dimensional body, then you have no dimensions, or every dimension.

I believe that this is the correct way to view things.  There is no time, and there is always time.  There is no time because time is a perception in our heads, to give our existence here structure.  There is always time because in knowing that time is a perception, you can make a second into as long as you wish it to be, and you can make an eon as short as you want it to be.

Now, given that all that I have written as being true, how can we, as three-dimensional, time bound beings ignore time and space?

In our dreams, in our sleep.

When we sleep, we find our connection to where we came from before we had a body.  That connection is always there, but it is more obvious to us when we sleep.

First, let me state, that all of this hangs on some (relatively) simple concepts.  We have talked about the Body, Spirit and Soul.  The soul is formless, and eternal.  Everyone’s got that, right?

Well, if that is what we ultimately are, then our souls have a connection to the AllThatIs.  The Overmind, God, The Supreme Intelligence, and so on….

You will probably find that even the most skeptical agnostic believes that there is some force controlling the universes.  They may not know what it is called, but they acknowledge it all the same.  This “force” is called many things, all that I wrote above, the Force, the Will, Magick, Spirit, and many more.  I call it the IS.  When I refer to the IS, this is what I am talking about.

With that connection to the IS, we have the same capabilities as the IS does.  We can create, destroy, change societies, be one with all creation, do Magick, commune with a dog, make universes and destroy planets.  Because our mind, our soul has that power.

Think for a moment.  You sit at your computer and decide that there is a story inside you that wants to come out.  So you sit, type, edit, type some more, edit some more, make revisions, change words, type, and so on, until at last, your story is born.  In that time, you have created a universe from whole cloth, messed with people’s lives, changed the course of their history, decided what is going to happen, and finished the story, probably with some deaths of people there.

None of this happens in just your head.  Because you thought of it, someplace, in some other world, that planet was created.  Those people you write about are now real, and persons with their own wants and desires, needs and drives, and destiny.  All out of your imagination.

Now, this is the same power the IS has.  IT created us, our world here, and as I type this, IT may be saying that I write it on IT’s computer as a story that IT created….

This is a wonderful ability, and a noble thing and it is what allows us to change the world here.  Our belief and our imagination.  Our WILL.

Because we are like this, and this world around us is made up of our perceptions, time becomes irrelevant.  If we are, then that is all that is necessary.  Our emotions, our thoughts, our will, and our desires.  Especially our Love.

Now, looked at that way, isn’t De’ja vou a minor ability?  It is seeing tomorrow, which is now ultimately.  Seeing two thousand years ago is no more remarkable, since it is also now.  Seeing China (if you live in the Untied States) is minor, since China is here.

DNA connections to other times and places is not supported in any sense.  It is (IMOHO) a scientist trying to explain a house that he can’t even see, or know the shape of, much less gleaning the information that will make it come clear to him.

But there are things in metaphysics that do explain de’ja vou, and somewhat neatly too.  Particle physics is coming closer everyday, as is quantum physics.  But right now, all of that is theoretical, with no way of proving it one way or another.

And I don’t have a degree in physics at all.  Try reading Stephen Hawking’s book A Brief History of Time sometime.  He explains the theories that I touch on briefly in more details.

Stars light your path.

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