• 14 October, 1999Counting since:
  • 877020Total site visitors:
  • 33Visitors today:
  • 0Visitors currently online:
  • 2236Visitors to this post:

Current Moon Phase

La Lune

My Tweets

Subscribe to the Journal

Enter your email address to subscribe to Erin's Journal and receive notifications of new posts by email.

Member of The Pagan Webcrafter's Association. The RSS feed for this site!
HomeRant, Stuff, The Tree Evidence


Evidence

Erin

(This is an unaltered document, I have the original emails with all the headers for this conversation if anyone cares to examine them.  You will also find this PDF file which has many of the original accusations laid out.  The first is an email I received when Mark was being encouraged to quit, just after the events on the PDF File above.  The rest follows from that.  I have not included emails from others, mainly  because that is not my place to share them, but all these are either from me or from my email.  I hope this will bring understanding to you all as to why this action and disassociation was taken.  Please forgive the spelling errors, my email client doesn’t have a spell checker and in the interest of not changing this at all, I have not corrected those spelling errors I came across.  This whole thing makes me wonder if he is really in contact with Buckland at all in the first place.)

Links relevant:

(Update 10-27-03  The soap opera continues)

Blessings Daven,

After further council with Ray, I have decided
the fight is worth it after all and I will retain
my post as Stiweard of Seax-Wica. Ray’s last
email is below:

“Mark, there is no need to apologize. You must do
what you feel is right for you.  I have seen all
this over many years. All you can do is know that
despite all the idiots, there are others out
there like you and me who are sincere, dedicated
Seax-Wicans. They are not the vocal ones, but
they are there. In over forty years I think my
response to AJDrew is the only one I’ve made in
public (he just struck a nerve!). Otherwise I
have always left people to blow themselves away
on the winds of change. The individuals never
seem to last long, but there are always more to
take their place. All you can do is concentrate
on the positive, which is what I try to do.”

Walk with Woden and Freya, Mark, and with love.
–   Ray


Mark,

I have been debating all night whether or not to write you back.

I am going to suggest that you not continue with your course in regards to
Seax-Wica. I know that you want to, but the problems still occuring from
previously are going to hamper all your efforts.

To whit: Your stances on homosexuality and on animal sacrafice.

Let me be clear in this: I don’t practice animal sacrafice because I
don’t have the means and I don’t have the time or energy to do so, not
because it’s “wrong” or what have you, as you keep putting up all over the
place. I understand the need for it, I understand the principals behind
it, and I understand it’s usage. But you publically calling all
practitioners of animal sacrafice cowards and demanding that they meet you
with steel in hand is idiotic. You will have the entire Jewish nation
down on you because of that, as they still practice it in their Kosher
law.

It’s your personal opinion, and that’s actually fine. Be that way, hold
that opinion, but you insulted not only the Theodics, but also the
Voodoun, the Santarians, many Witches, some traditions of Druidism, other
groups in Pagandom and Heathenry. You even (Gods only know how) managed
to slap the US Constitution in the face, since it has been proven in the
courts more than once that animal sacrafice is protected as a religious
activity. If the law doesn’t have a problem with this, you should not
have a problem with it either.

Fine, hold the opinion that it’s bad. In that you won’t be different from
multiple Wiccans, but you cannot do anything legally and you can be
prosecuted for Slander now because of your statements.

As for homosexuality, you are completely in the wrong. You have not only
managed to piss off a HUGE group in the US, one with a lot of political
power, you pissed off most of our own adherants as well. You do realize
that about half of the population of Seax-Wica right now that we know of
are actively gay? That I’m married to a bi-sexual? That there are others
who are supporters of gay rights?

As with the animal sacrafice, be homophobic if you want. State it as a
personal position and choice, but don’t take on the “mantle of the
Stieward of Seax-Wica” and make threats against people who are supporters
or practitioners of the gay lifestyle because all you will do is drive
people away from Seax-Wica, just as they are leaving Christianity for a
simmilar position.

Remember that there are no ranks in SW, only priests and non-members. No
one person is more important than any other, and you do not speak for all
SW’s, only for yourself.

If you continue with being as reactionary as you are, you will find
yourself the “head” (figurehead though it is) of nothing and no one will
be willing to join you, at all.

You are wrong in this matter and you really need to think this one through
with out the insanity you have been displaying at this point. Threatening
people’s jobs because you disagree with a Constitutionally Protected right
is insane and wrong. You need time to rethink this position.

Daven


>Daven wrote:
> Mark,
> I have been debating all night whether or not
> to write you back.
> I am going to suggest that you not continue
> with your course in regards to
> Seax-Wica. I know that you want to, but the
> problems still occuring from
> previously are going to hamper all your
> efforts.

OK… I will reply here, as sensible as I can.
First, after much council with Ray over the past
few days, I have decided to remain at the post of
Stiweard. Here is the last email that Ray sent
me, just this morning…

Raymond Buckland wrote:
“Mark, I applaud your decision [to remain as
Stiweard]! As you said, all warriors are afraid
when going into battle; but true bravery is to
continue on and fight! I would suggest you do
not do any message boards, chat rooms, or
whatever. These generally seem to be where those
argumentative types congregate, many only there
to cause trouble. It’s true that the leader of
Seax-Wica (your good self) has no “official”
power, but you’ll find that simply by virture of
making decrees as Stiweard those who are true
Seax-Wicans will follow. I have every faith in
you, Mark. You are the ONLY one I have considered
for this position, and I know you can do it. Just
don’t let “them” get to you. You can only do
what you can do, and leave the rest up to the
Gods. You can’t expect to change the world . . .
well, not overnight anyway!
In love and light – Ray-B, Faeder”

This being said, I’ll address your email. If you
don’t want to correspond further, I understand.

Daven wrote:
> To whit: Your stances on homosexuality and on
> animal sacrafice.
> Let me be clear in this: I don’t practice
> animal sacrafice because I
> don’t have the means and I don’t have the time
> or energy to do so, not
> because it’s “wrong” or what have you, as you
> keep putting up all over the
> place. I understand the need for it, I
> understand the principals behind
> it, and I understand it’s usage. But you
> publically calling all
> practitioners of animal sacrafice cowards and
> demanding that they meet you
> with steel in hand is idiotic.

OK… first, I have to agree with your last
sentence. Ermund and the boys really got me
pissed off. And I shouldn’t have challenged them.
They just struck a nerve… especially with the
notice they put on their board about executing me
via hanging or drowning in a bog. Oh, Swain
warned me about these fools, but I am a hot
headed SOB! I am NOT a passive sheep or goat that
is easily slaughtered. Daven, with this said,
please know that even though I am opposed to ALL
forms of violence, such was not always the case.
I am only human and I can get angry as quick (if
not quicker) than the other guy. But I am trying
to spread compassion. I know, I know, it sure
doesn’t seem like it when I make challenges as
such. Still, true Gesiths are warriors! And we
MUST fight for what is right and true… This is
the problem with paganism today. No one fully
understands ANYTHING anymore! Let me address your
statement… I too understand the history and
principles behind blood sacrifice. But in TODAY’S
world there is NO need for such violence. It is
WRONG. Plain and simple. For once, just hear me
out… While we can learn from our ancestor’s
wisdom, we must also learn from their mistakes.
Every animal killed is one step closer to
extinction for that species! The Auroch is GONE–
EXTINCT! Because of the ignorance of our
ancestors. Paganism is a nature religion, and
being thus, humans need to OBSERVE nature and
learn to live within the cycle of things. But
such is not the case. Humans are NOT designed as
carnavoirs. If we were, then killing would not be
wrong. But because we are not designed as such,
killing is wrong because it is against our
nature. Simply looking at the human body,
internally as well as externally, will prove
this. I can go on and on… but I won’t because
you evidentally disagree. This is sad. Violence
begats violence. There is a connection. If you
cannot see it, I am sorry. Moving on to the next
part of your email…

Daven wrote:
You will have
> the entire Jewish nation
> down on you because of that, as they still
> practice it in their Kosher
> law.

Don’t even get me started at the Jews,
Christians, Islamic, etc! There is nothing good
about any middle-eastern religion! Nuff said!

Daven wrote:
> It’s your personal opinion, and that’s actually
> fine. Be that way, hold
> that opinion, but you insulted not only the
> Theodics, but also the
> Voodoun, the Santarians, many Witches, some
> traditions of Druidism, other
> groups in Pagandom and Heathenry.

So be it. If killing humans is wrong, then
killing ANYTHING is wrong. Are we a race of
hyocrites? The world is a screwed up place…
just the other day a man in my town got arrested
for having anal sex with a horse! And he killed
the poor thing too… he tied it to a split-rail
fence and it choked itself to death trying to get
away! Maybe the world needs someone with morals
to set it straight again? In today’s world we
have catholic priests molesting children,
buddhist priests frequenting brothels, hindu
priests running drugs and guns, and all the
crazies in the middle east are condoning suicide
bombers, etc! You don’t see a pattern??? It’s
time to wake the world up dude!!! And if I have
to shake paganism to its foundations, then I
will.

Daven wrote:
You even
> (Gods only know how) managed
> to slap the US Constitution in the face, since
> it has been proven in the
> courts more than once that animal sacrafice is
> protected as a religious
> activity. If the law doesn’t have a problem
> with this, you should not
> have a problem with it either.

WHAT??? Just because it’s a “law” doesn’t mean
it’s morally right! You of all people should know
that! The US government is probably the most
corrupt government in the entire world… but
alas, might makes right! WRONG!!!

Daven wrote:
> Fine, hold the opinion that it’s bad. In that
> you won’t be different from
> multiple Wiccans, but you cannot do anything
> legally and you can be
> prosecuted for Slander now because of your
> statements.

Bullshit! I did not slander anyone. I am speaking
the moral truth. There are laws against animal
cruelty… of course, this is like the pot
calling the kettle black since the US government
slaughters over 30 billion animals annually. Oh,
what a sick and twisted race we’ve become. But
no, I did not slander anyone. I am simply making
a statement that killing is wrong.

Daven wrote:
> As for homosexuality, you are completely in the
> wrong.

NO I AM NOT! Homosexuality goes against every
natural law… and I didn’t create those laws!!!
And neither did any government. Those laws were
ordained by the Gods themselves. If you cannot
understand natural law… I don’t know what to
tell you.

Daven wrote:
You have not only
> managed to piss off a HUGE group in the US, one
> with a lot of political
> power, you pissed off most of our own adherants
> as well. You do realize
> that about half of the population of Seax-Wica
> right now that we know of
> are actively gay?

Gay people practicing Seax-Wica? No. They might
masquerade as Seax-Wiccans, but they are NOT
Seax-Wiccan. They are hedonists! Seax-Wica is a
nature religion… it is not a “do whatever feels
good” religion.

Daven wrote:
That I’m married to a
> bi-sexual? That there are others
> who are supporters of gay rights?
> As with the animal sacrafice, be homophobic if
> you want.

You know, this is really funny. People use the
word homophobic as it is a bad thing, forgetting
that the real problem is the immoral act of
homosexuality! If I am homophobic… so be it. If
I am a bigot… so be it. What I really am is
moral. I have morals in an immoral world and this
is where people have a problem. So be it.

Daven wrote:
State it as a
> personal position and choice, but don’t take on
> the “mantle of the
> Stieward of Seax-Wica” and make threats against
> people who are supporters
> or practitioners of the gay lifestyle because
> all you will do is drive
> people away from Seax-Wica, just as they are
> leaving Christianity for a
> simmilar position.

Daven, the problem with “preachers” today is that
they preach what the public WANTS to hear and not
what the public NEEDS to hear. I am NOT this way.
NO! This is NOT a personal choice. Homosexuality
is wrong. Blood sacrifice is wrong. There are
many more issues I will address in the near
future, but I had to start somewhere, so I
started with these two. People are pissed because
I am telling them that they are wrong. But hey,
laws are laws! If you are caught doing 90 in a 35
what happens? If they want to be gay, so be it.
They are hedonists, NOT Seax-Wica. If they want
their blood sacrifices, so be it. They are cruel
animal killers, NOT Seax-Wica. I simply want
people to know this. It is a razor’s edge I am
walking… not because I am afraid of running
people away. I can care less about losing immoral
individuals. But, I see how easily I am drawn
into violence by these semi-violent people. I
loath violence… but I will fight for those who
cannot fight for themselves! Animals, children,
etc.

Daven wrote:
> Remember that there are no ranks in SW, only
> priests and non-members. No
> one person is more important than any other,
> and you do not speak for all
> SW’s, only for yourself.

Re-read Ray’s message above. And remember, he
wrote the Tree 30 years ago. Times are changing!

Daven wrote:
> If you continue with being as reactionary as
> you are, you will find
> yourself the “head” (figurehead though it is)
> of nothing and no one will
> be willing to join you, at all.

I disagree… and so does Ray.

Daven wrote:
> You are wrong in this matter and you really
> need to think this one through
> with out the insanity you have been displaying
> at this point.

No. I am not wrong. Sure, I got a little crazy
with a berzerker rage. Sorry. Just showing my
true colors, dude. But again, I fight for those
who cannot fight for themselves!

Daven wrote:
Threatening
> people’s jobs because you disagree with a
> Constitutionally Protected right
> is insane and wrong.

Daven, Ermund is a youth corrections
officer. Most of the kids he deals with are in
custody due to violent crimes. With his lust for
blood sacrifice, he is the last person who needs
to be counciling children! Also, he told me
personally that he would like to BLOT the
children he deals with! Bet he never told you
that, eh? I go by the old strategy of “keep your
friends close; enemies closer.” I befriended
Ermund to find out his story. What I discovered
was very scary. A 27 year old punk running around
the woods lopping the heads off of helpless
animals is NOT fit to teach children rehab! And I
wasn’t threatening him. It was a promise. He
threatened me with execution!!! (Like he could
pull that one off)… and so I answered him with
exposure! He lives in Virginia. That’s the
Christian bible belt. Constitution or no, if I
expose him he will lose his job! And I will
expose him if he continues to attack me and the
good name of Seax-Wica. I don’t want to. I want
everyone to get along. Love, peace, happiness.
That’s all I want. But this is impossible when
their hands are soaked in blood! Same goes for
the filthy practice of homosexuality.

Dude, when does it stop? Where do we draw the
line? Oh… I guess beastiality is a personal
choice? What about pediphelia? How about murder?
Maybe breaking and entering is a personal choice
too? What you are asking is to throw out all the
laws of nature and have total anarchy! Is this
what you want? I think America’s problem is
everyone thinks they’re free. Sorry. Freedom does
not exist. In America or anywhere else… here we
have only the illusion of freedom. Gravity,
inertia, etc… laws dude… everywhere you look!
I am not the creator of these laws; I’m just
trying to get people back on track.

Daven wrote:
You need time to rethink
> this position.

I have. I am the Stiweard of Seax-Wica and Ray is
behind me 100%. Need I say more?

If you don’t want to discuss this any further, I
understand. You can even give me a bad review on
the Rede if you want. I really don’t care. As Ray
has said, it might seem that there are a lot of
people pissed off at what I say, but the truth
is, for every one of these immoral crybabies,
there are 10 to 20 good people out there. I have
to be strong for them. Seax-Wica is not a
hedonistic faith. And I am really shocked that
you, with all your intelligence, cannot see
through all this bogus garbage. Oh man, can you
see two men in the circle doing the Great Rite?
If that is not a total blastphemy I certainly
don’t know what is! Even Gardner was against
homosexuality. Cunningham was against blood
sacrifice. I know MANY vegetarian witches. I am
NOT alone in my views. But thanks for replying. I
will “try” to curb my rage. Hey, even I am not
perfect… but I am trying. And that’s the point
I am trying to make… “We must strive for
perfection, knowing full well that perfection is
unobtainable.”

Bless’d be,
Mark Ventimiglia
Stiweard of Seax-Wica


But in TODAY’S
> world there is NO need for such violence.

That may be true, but it is not for you to judge another’s path. It is
not your job to call them cowards, evil, despicable or anything else like
it. If you insist on being the leader of Seax-Wica, you have to
understand the basic point of tolerance. You can disagree with them all
you want on whatever point you choose, but you MUST tolerate their
belief. This does not mean that you must support it, agree with it,
practice it, it means that you keep your opinion to yourself in these
matters and don’t go around publicly opposing them.

It is
> WRONG. Plain and simple. For once, just hear me
> out…

I will always give you a fair hearing. But you have offered no evidence
that what you say is the truth. You are not a God, so you don’t know what
the Gods want and don’t want. Just a few days ago, I sacrificed blood to
my deities, and I have done that in the past. There are all kinds of
cultures that still actively use animal sacrifice and blood sacrifice and
so on to worship their gods. But until you ascend, you cannot speak
authoritatively on what the particular God or Goddess wants and doesn’t
want or whether or not it is necessary.

> Every animal killed is one step closer to
> extinction for that species!

So we should stop animals in the wild from eating because that kills and
makes species extinct?

The Auroch is GONE–
> EXTINCT! Because of the ignorance of our
> ancestors.

Maybe, but you know what? I went looking and scientists and the general
populace can’t determine when the Auroch even went extinct. I have seen
dates ranging from 10 centuries BCE to the 1700’s CE. If there are still
ones out there that others can find and hunt, what makes you think that it
is completely gone?

The Gods put animals here for us to use, consume, hunt and kill. Despite
what you say, our bodies are geared toward omnivorism. Yes, we can ingest
grains and vegetables, but we also do just as good on meat, like every
other mammal out there. Many people are intolerant to milk, or other
calcium bearing liquids, many others cannot ingest mass amounts of
carbohydrates because of various medical problems, others have anemia
because of a lack of iron. It’s a medical fact, that red meat gives iron
to the eater in greater quantities than eating spinich. There is no
better source of protein than meat. Period.

It’s a cycle of nature that things are born, grow and die. Being a Vegan
is a personal choice, not a religious one. No place in the Tree does it
say that we cannot eat meat.

I fear that you are laboring under a misconception in that you think that
there is torture involved in the death of an animal who is used as a
sacrafice. It’s an easier death than the same fate of the cow used for
hamburger. Commercial meat growing facilities disgust me, and yes, I try
to get them to clean up their practice. But just because I do that does
not mean that eating meat is wrong.

Yes, it may be against the Rede (the real one from Lady Gwen) to harm
animals, but you know what, it never says in there anyplace that we can’t
eat them. Harming them by torture, yea, that’s bad. Slicing a pregnant
cat open and laughing while it dies is a terrible thing. Shooting a deer
for the table and putting down a cow are not, for their deaths tend to be
fast and there shouldn’t be (note I don’t say there is not, I know many
unethical hunters) any suffering from compassionate hunters.

Paganism is a nature religion, and
> being thus, humans need to OBSERVE nature and
> learn to live within the cycle of things.

Okay, given that, we should hunt. We should hunt and kill and if someone
gets a disease they should not be helped, they should be dumped out to
live or die by their own constitution. We should all be competing for
our food, our territory, there should be one person who is the strongest to
lead, and all others should submit to them. If challenged, the leader
should fight to the death, and if defeated he will be dead. There should
be a pecking order and one person should be on the bottom to be abused by
everyone. THAT is what nature says. If you want to use a herd mentality
instead of a pack mentality, then there should be one leader, who fights
and kills for his position, who has the right to fuck every female that is
in his herd. No others are allowed to propagate.

THAT’S nature. That’s the natural order of things. Morals and ethics are
unnatural. It’s survival of the fittest and the one with the most progeny
wins.

But
> such is not the case. Humans are NOT designed as
> carnavoirs.

Bullshit. Our tooth structure is designed around ripping and tearing
meat, our digestion is designed to consume meat, our blood, our bones, our
hands and feet. Hell, the fact that we are warm blooded is also an
indication that we are supposed to eat meat. Granted we get the MOST benefitwhen we have a mixed diet of meat and veg/grains, but I’m on a
strict meat diet and I’m not dead or dying, and strict lacto/ovo vegans
have all kinds of medical problems.

> Don’t even get me started at the Jews,
> Christians, Islamic, etc! There is nothing good
> about any middle-eastern religion! Nuff said!

Nothing good about any of them? So all of civilization, all that has been
made, all the advances in the last 2000 or more years have nothing good
coming from them? You do realize the concept of Karma comes from one of
those “middle-eastern” religions, right? That the magickal structure of
the Kaballah comes from Judiasm, that most of the ritual structure of
Wicca comes directly from the Key of Solomon, who was one of those evil
Judaic kings? Running water, pure water, lifespans of 100+ years,
medicines and electricity and so on. None of it good? Okay….

> just the other day a man in my town got arrested
> for having anal sex with a horse! And he killed
> the poor thing too… he tied it to a split-rail
> fence and it choked itself to death trying to get
> away!

And he’s a sick fuck and deserves to be put down, but that’s for animal
cruelty. But I have personally witnessed dogs having sex with horses, I
have watched tapes of whales making love with dolphins, and so on. Cross-
species intercorse is not new, and it’s sick, but that’s not why he
deserves to have his dick shot off.

Maybe the world needs someone with morals
> to set it straight again?

You do realize that you sound just like Jerry Falwell and Oral Roberts and
all those other people who have decided that they are the moral guardians
of the world and that they alone know what is right for everyone? That’s
what you are doing, setting yourself up as a fundamental religious bigot,
the only difference is that you have a pentagram, not a cross. Other than
that, you sound just like them.

In today’s world we
> have catholic priests molesting children,

Who are being procecuted for that…

> buddhist priests frequenting brothels,

Evidence? New one to me. And if they do, they deserve to be ejected.

hindu
> priests running drugs and guns,

Evidence? Never heard this one either.

and all the
> crazies in the middle east are condoning suicide
> bombers, etc!

Oh, yes, because all of Islam is bad. Let me point something out,
FUNDAMENTAL Islam is bad, it has been condemed for decades by the very
moderate Islamics who saved hundreds of thousands of Pagans when the
Ottoman Empire was in charge. They didn’t slaughter those who prayed to
different gods, in fact their attitude was one of “You worship your gods,
just obey the laws”. You are setting yourself up as one of those Catholic
Inquisitors who executed those very people who showed them mercy when
positions were reversed.

You don’t see a pattern??? It’s
> time to wake the world up dude!!! And if I have
> to shake paganism to its foundations, then I
> will.

Paganism as a whole has survived other fundamental idiots before, so you
will not succeed. You mis-quote, you mis-represent, you misstate just
about everything you have said. All it boils down to is that all this is
your opinion.

> WHAT??? Just because it’s a “law” doesn’t mean
> it’s morally right! You of all people should know
> that! The US government is probably the most
> corrupt government in the entire world… but
> alas, might makes right! WRONG!!!

The point is not whether or not it’s wrong, immoral or what have you, it’s
whether or not it’s illegal. In this country it is not illegal and in
many countries around the world (the whole world, not just Europe), it’s
not illegal either. Moral decisions MUST be made by individuals, they
cannot be legislated. All laws can do is keep the peace and try to
promote general wellbeing. It is not illegal so it is not wrong.
Discount morals for a moment. If you wish to say it’s morally wrong,
fine. That’s your position. I still have not seen any evidence from any
of Buckland’s writings or supliments saying that animal/blood sacrafice is
morally wrong, and he would be wrong to say so anyhow.

> Bullshit! I did not slander anyone.

Writing things and publishing them saying that they are murderers *is*
slander. I’m sorry, writing it down is LIBEL. Slander is saying it
vocally or by signs. You have certainly successfully fulfilled the legal
definition of Libel and slander.

I am speaking
> the moral truth.

But you are only in the position of speaking a moral truth for yourself,
that’s the basic point you keep missing.

There are laws against animal
> cruelty…

Prove that the animals are suffering when they die.

I am simply making
> a statement that killing is wrong.

Fine, make that statement, but you know what? Calling people murderers is
still slander and if you write it down, it’s libel.

> NO I AM NOT! Homosexuality goes against every
> natural law… and I didn’t create those laws!!!
> And neither did any government. Those laws were
> ordained by the Gods themselves. If you cannot
> understand natural law… I don’t know what to
> tell you.

You don’t do much study of nature do you? Animals make homosexual unions
all the time. It’s not good for the species survival, but it’s natural,
as in PART OF NATURE.

Want more proof?

http://www.colorq.org/Articles/1999/animals.htm
http://www.bidstrup.com/sodomy.htm
http://enotalone.com/books/ASIN/0312192398.html

> Gay people practicing Seax-Wica? No. They might
> masquerade as Seax-Wiccans, but they are NOT
> Seax-Wiccan. They are hedonists! Seax-Wica is a
> nature religion… it is not a “do whatever feels
> good” religion.

So, let me get this straight…. if they don’t agree with you, they are
not “true” Seax-Wicans? Won’t that be a surprise to Raymond Buckland who
has talked about eating meat in other books. Who himself says that if a
homosexual is attracted to Wicca that they should be welcomed, not
discriminated against.

Dude, you have a severe ego and hubris problem. No one will ever agree on
all things with someone else. Sicophants are not wanted by most. You
won’t want co-religionists, you want followers and worshipers. The grand
Church of Mark….

But hey,
> laws are laws! If you are caught doing 90 in a 35
> what happens?

So after saying that laws allowing animal sacrafice in a religious sense
is completely wrong and corrupt, now you are saying that laws are laws and
that they should be obeyed? Get your story straight.

> Re-read Ray’s message above. And remember, he
> wrote the Tree 30 years ago. Times are changing!

Alright, you want me to believe that Raymond Buckland supports you? Give
me his home phone number and his email address so I can ask him directly.
But let me show you something:

> Daven, my brother and friend.
> I have not ever, nor do I look to ever
> give up my leadership of Seax-Wica.
> I have not been active in the past
> and that is to my shame. I have not
> participated as much as I may, and
> that is also to my shame. But truthfully
> when it was recieved in the late 1970’s
> as baddly as it was, it depressed me.
> I tried to go on with the Seminary and
> teach the principals of Seax-Wica
> to those who were interested, but I also
> got distracted by my studies of Peti-Wica
> with Abrian Craddoc. I will look into
> what is currently happening now and
> get back in touch with you.
>
> Raymond Buckland

(Please note this:  Raymond never said that to me.  I was attempting to point out to Mark in this exchange that I couldn’t take his word for it simply because he said he had an email from Buckland supporting him.  I made that exchange with Raymond up completely.)

That’s from an email I recieved when all this first started and I
contacted him by mail not to long ago. He states that he would never give
up his leadership of Seax-Wica to anyone. So I don’t believe that
your “authority” is real.

> Daven, Ermund is a youth corrections
> officer. Most of the kids he deals with are in
> custody due to violent crimes. With his lust for
> blood sacrifice, he is the last person who needs
> to be counciling children!

Uh huh. Your point is? He’s not some crazed idiot running around killing
any animal in sight, he’s purchasing an animal specifically for the
sacrafice, and doing it quickly and cleanly. No different from
slaughtering a pig or cow for a farmer’s table.

Also, he told me
> personally that he would like to BLOT the
> children he deals with!

Did you ever stop to consider that he meant that as “go to a religious
ceremony with those children and teach them about the ways of Teodism” or
that he was joking? Or that he was blowing off steem? What in hell made
you think that he actually meant that he wants to kill them?

Damn dude.

And I
> wasn’t threatening him. It was a promise.

Strange, a lawyer friend of mine looked at some of those posts you put up
and said that it was terroristic threats, and a crime.

He
> threatened me with execution!!! (Like he could
> pull that one off)…

Once again, you misunderstood. I quote:

“Be it further known that Mark Stiweard has accused Ermund Thiodan of
cowardice, a serious charge in
Theodish Belief, and has thus broke the frith (peace) which existed
between our folk. Let it be cited that
cowardice was considered a capital offence among the ancient Heathens. As
the Roman Historian Tacitus
noted in the 12th chapter of Germania, “The Assembly is competent also to
hear criminal charges,
especially those involving the risk of capital punishment. The mode of
execution varies according to the
offence. Traitors and deserters are hanged on trees; cowards, shirkers,
and sodomites are pressed down
under a wicker hurdle into the slimy mud of a bog. This distinction in the
punishments is based upon the
idea that the offenders against the state should be made a public example
of, whereas deeds of shame
should be buried out of men’s sight.”

This is a quote. It is regarding the charge of cowardice and that means
of execution in the past. It is a statement of what was, not a threat of
any kind.

I further quote:

“As we in Folcaha Sachsen Thiod do take great offence to the accusation
which Mark Stiweard has leveled
against our Kuning, and as we know that our Kuning has been more than fair
in his dealings with Mark
Stiweard, we hereby deem Mark Ventimiglia to be a Fiond, an adversary of
Folcaha Sachsen Thiod.

Let it be known that, though we are appalled by the behavior of its
current Stiweard, we in Folcaha
Sachsen Thiod continue to hold no ill will toward the Saxon Wiccan
Tradition of Seax Wica or its
adherents. If Mark Ventimiglia would seek to make amends for this grave
violation of Heathen thew
(custom), he may contact a Folcaha Sachsen Thiod Uuitan member at
folkriver@yahoo.com to discuss
arrangements regarding shild owed. It is our hope that Mark Ventimiglia
will do so and that frithful
relations between our folk may resume unimpeded.”

This is a call for some kind of restitution for your libelous remarks of
cowardice and of being a murderer. He is saying that there is nothing
between him or you for your actions. If you wanted to clear it up he
gives a proceedure to do so. No threats of execution, no calls to kill
you, no jihads no anything. Just “this man is an enemy and he can change
that status THIS way…” Just as you did to him on
covenofthegreenearth.com not too long ago.

Constitution or no, if I
> expose him he will lose his job!

Sorry to burst your bubble, but no he won’t. He may be pressured to
leave, but he won’t loose his job over it.

First of all, his job knows about his religious practices. They have
given him time off in the past to go and have an animal sacrafice.
Second, being that animal sacrafice is a protected right in the
Constitution, if they fired him he could sue the state in Federal court
and wind up winning millions and millions of dollars in damages and
punative fees. The ACLU would love this case. There is a whole book
called “Pagans and the Law” by Dana Eilers that you should look through.
They can’t fire him for this, and he can’t be prosecuted for it.
Third off, you have no say in it as you are a British Subject, not even an
American Citizen, therefore, you have no cause for complaint or anything
else.

What you are asking is to throw out all the
> laws of nature and have total anarchy!

Hate to tell you this, but the Law of Nature IS total Anarchy. Anarchy
is “survival of the fittest” as well as being THE natural order.

Gravity,
> inertia, etc… laws dude… everywhere you look!

Those are physical laws, very different from natural laws or civil and
criminal laws. Hell, there’s mathematical laws too.

> I have. I am the Stiweard of Seax-Wica and Ray is
> behind me 100%. Need I say more?

Nope. You have said it all. You will continue in this path, alienating
everyone you meet. I had hoped that I could be the voice of reason here
and talk you down from this, but at this point you have made it plain that
you won’t listen to reason.

I still have yet to see any evidence that Raymond is behind you. I think
he would be really surprised to find that out.

You can even give me a bad review on
> the Rede if you want. I really don’t care.

I will give you a fair review. I have been friends with authors I have
panned, and I have given good reviews to mortal enemies. I will treat you
no differently. But if this email is representative of your book, I think
it’s probably going to earn a bad review just on the book’s merrits.
Misquoted facts, statements not in evidence meaning that it assumes too
much, pan-pagan statements or blanket statements, moral superiority etc.

And I am really shocked that
> you, with all your intelligence, cannot see
> through all this bogus garbage.

I have seen through all the bogus garbage to the truth of the matter: The
gods have Their own needs and wants, and all we can do is try to interpert
those as best as we can. Nature is an observable thing, and all of
natures laws say “Survive by any means”. Homosexuality is a natural
thing, as it occurs IN NATURE. I have seen through the bogus
fundamentalism that you and Jerry Falwell espouse, and it’s based on fear
and hatred and misunderstanding.

Oh man, can you
> see two men in the circle doing the Great Rite?

Actually, it’s a beautiful thing. I have witnessed it and they were
lovely. Love was there, the form didn’t fucking matter. Just because one
was packaged as a guy instead of as a girl didn’t matter.

Daven


(Just as a note, I did not remove anything from the train of this conversation, this is the actual real response I got from Mark after the previous one.)

Daven,

I am not sure you realize this, but there are
certain “things” that must be met before one can
hide their practices behind the “freedom” of the
constitution… meaning, there are certain
practices that are not protected. IE: No court in
the nation will allow you to preform human blood
sacrifice, etc. Even the Rastas can’t smoke Ganja
without getting into trouble and that IS a part
of their religion! Oh but this is going nowhere,
I can see that.

As for as me slandering anyone… nope. Didn’t
happen. When I called them guys “cowards” I was
merely pointing out the fact that they 1)
sybolically fight mortal combat with wooden toy
swords but then 2) actually kill the poor animal.
Tisk tisk, can you not see the difference? Humans
are so wishy-washy and hypocritical! All I was
saying was that it doesn not take bravery, honor,
and courage, to murder a helpless animals…
however on the other hand, it does take balls of
steel (or insanity) to face a trained sword
master with live steel. Again… it seems this
went right over your head. SIGH.

Dude, you claim you are a peace maker, yet it was
YOU that pointed out Ermunds remarks on his
board. Ya know… I helped him set that board up,
yet I was NOT interested in checking it out until
you told me what he was doing. Seems like you are
not the peacemaker you claim to be, eh? It
doesn’t matter. I will do what I will do, you
will do what you will do, and he will do what he
will do, and the world will contiue on as it has
for millions of years.

But know this… our days are numbered. Every
species is given a chance. The dinosaurs had
theirs, the mastadons and saber-toothed tigers
had theirs, and we have had ours. 100 years from
now you and I will not care one bit about this
argument. So what is the point, eh? The point is
LIFE! I respect ALL life and it pains me to see
any life not respected… and worse… exploited
to the point of death.

Sure, I got fucking stupid with rage. So be it. I
do NOT apologize for my actions. Sometimes ya got
to stoop to their level just to be understood.
Would you not rally to violence if you witnessed
someone molesting a child? Well, I see NO
difference between human or animal. Even what we
do to the earth is upsetting… the rain forests,
the oceans, the air… everything! When does it
stop?

Well… you take care. Please do some meditating
on this subject. I am not looking for you to come
to my side of the fence. I know I am right. Ray
knows I am right. And a score of other pagans out
there know I am right.

And while you guys continue to waste time flaming
people on unmoderated websites, I will continue
to work for the betterment of the world. You do
know that I am in close contact with President
Bush, don’t you? Yes. I get a letter from him
(not email, but a hand written letter) about once
a month. He has a copy of both of my Wiccan books
as well as a few other of my alternative
spiritual books on hinduism and buddhism. He is a
good man. I do not accept the fact that we are in
Iraq, but I do understand where he is coming
from. Sometimes we have to resort to violence to
stop the violence even when we do not want to
resort to violence. It is a razor’s edge we
tread. Of course, I don’t think it’s right to
impose our standards on other countries when we
are still killing 30 billion animals a year, as
well as other henious acts to grisly to get into
here. But he is the president. I do stand behind
his decision to ban gay marriages! Again, a moral
issue.

You say you’re married to a bi-sexual? Well,
don’t come crying to me when you get AIDS!

In light and love and love is the bond, love is
the law does not mean homosexual love! Read the
Tree dude… man NEEDS woman, woman NEEDS man…
NOT man needs man, woman needs woman. SIGH.

Stop causing problems and start living and
teaching a moral lifestyle! You and all these
others are not preaching paganism… any kind of
it… you are merely sugar coating hedonism in
the hopes of satisfying your guilt. You know
you’re wrong. DEAL WITH IT. Change for the
better. This is not about tolerance or personal
choice, it’s about what it RIGHT and what is
WRONG. Even if 100 billion people condoned
murder, it would still be wrong. Even if 100
billion people said gravity is not real, gravity
would still work! A natural law is a natural law.
Blood sacrifice is wrong… so is
homosexuality…

‘Nuff said… I have work to do elsewhere and
this is wasting me time.

(This is the end of our correspondence.  Others may have other parts of it, but this is the end of our discussion of it, as well as my attempt to convince him down.  This is also the reason I wash my hands of him.)

Originally posted 2009-11-10 03:06:36. Republished by Blog Post Promoter

Print This Post Print This Post

Leave a Reply

You can use these HTML tags and attributes: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <s> <strike> <strong>